Hack & Grow Rich Episode 147:
Mental Health and Entrepreneurship
w/ Dr Fred Moss

DESCRIPTION:

Shaahin and his co-host Bart are joined by Dr. Fred Moss in this special episode of Hack & Grow Rich to discuss the importance of taking care of your mental health when doing business.

Board certified psychiatrist Dr. Fred Moss has served the mental health industry for 30+ years. His clinical experience has been diverse and includes inpatient, outpatient, residential, rehabilitation, orphanages, clinic settings, nursing homes, homeless shelters, telepsychiatry, and prisons. His experience also includes file and disability reviews, peer reviews, and utilization reviews.

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, shaahin, doctor, medicine, bart, moss, called, drugs, diagnosis, medications, condition, thought, psychiatrist, psychiatric diagnosis, life, podcast, talk, treat, book, panic attack

SPEAKERS

Shaahin Cheyene, Intro, Dr Fred Moss, Bart Baggett

Intro  00:00

You're now listening to Hack & Grow Rich with Shaahin Cheyene, and his co-host Bart Baggett, where we discuss hacking your way to success and the unconventional paths to unreasonable success with the people who've been there and now the author of Billion: How I Became King Of The Thrill Pill Cult. Shaahin Cheyene

Shaahin Cheyene  00:26

We got there. Welcome. We've got Bart Bart we are doing live on the air right now. Just so you know. So we are live streaming on Facebook. And then we will move on. We are live streaming on YouTube as well. And I'm going to take it alive. I'm trying a little bit of something new. Can you hear me okay, but I hear

Bart Baggett  00:47

you great, loud and clear. And hello, everybody. Welcome to the show. All right.

Shaahin Cheyene  00:52

Well, why don't you kick it off?

Bart Baggett  00:55

This is hacking Grow Rich. This is the place you need to be if you'd like to be rich and happy. My name is Bart Baggett, my co host Shaahin Cheyenne. I always say that the Texas accent I can't I can't talk to my parents. It just bleeds Texas accent. I know it's not the proper Persian enunciation. So yeah, this is a cool program, we're gonna have an interesting guest today, we generally talk about business entrepreneurship, and other things related to sort of a shortcut to success. But a lot of psychology. I think today we're gonna be talking about mental health and psychology and some of the words that that US people that decide to you know, run our own business run into Shaahin, good to see you, man. Thanks for putting it all live.

Shaahin Cheyene  01:33

Good to see Bart what's new, tell me what's going on know you got a new comedy show coming out, which I love. Yeah,

Bart Baggett  01:40

I've been writing some new material. And so I'll be in LA. Doing the hot cafe was a new material. And then I'm actually going into marketing crews, I'm actually going to take the risk of living in a COVID bubble, go on a cruise with a bunch of marketing guys in the Caribbean and do about 20 minutes of comedy. And you know, kind of building that building that foundation without Netflix special. It's funny, because you know, this is just one of those bucket list things. I'm not sure I'll ever make any money from it. But it's hard and it's good and it's satisfying. And I think I think I'm better trained or when I'm studying comedy. My timings a little bit sharper when a moment zoom calls.

Shaahin Cheyene  02:14

So it's interesting that you talk about that. And actually, this is something that I want to talk to Dr. Moss about. And I think there comes Dr. Moss very is Dr. Fred moss. Hi, welcome.

Dr Fred Moss  02:28

Shaahin Shaahin. How you doing today?

Shaahin Cheyene  02:30

Good, good. So we're gonna give a little bit of an introduction. So just hang tight, Barton. I'll usually talk for a few moments. And then we'll give you a little bit of an introduction. And then you can come on, we're doing great. But actually, as Bart and I were talking about right now Bart is about to go on a set a marketing cruise. Is that what you called it?

Bart Baggett  02:50

Yeah, like 400 marketers. And instead of just a bunch of lectures in a hotel room, they go on a cruise and network and then one of the headline, comedians, and yet it's funny because, you know, 20 years ago, I was the headline speaker about marketing

Shaahin Cheyene  03:04

to go live this money for about two weeks.

Bart Baggett  03:10

Yeah, a little reverb there.

Shaahin Cheyene  03:11

Got a little reverb there. So I think it's Dr. Moss might be playing something. So Dr. Moss, I'll just mute you. And then I'll ask you to unmute. Once we're ready for you to come on. Dr. Moss, who I like to think of him as, as many things quite quite an amazing individual with a with a really deep backstory that, particularly at this time, I think really strikes a nerve because we always talk about foundational thinking when we're on hacking Grow Rich Bart. And I know we talk about how you need to have the pillars of financial success to succeed, you need to have money and cashflow, positive real estate, you need to have money on Amazon, you need to have money on you need to have money invested in the markets, gaining revenue for you. And then you also need to have a career, something that's relaxing you and allowing you to do all that cool stuff. But here's the interesting thing. I think that similarly with how your finances need to be as diversified as possible, your physical health, your mental health has to be solidified. It has to be balanced. And I think that's a four pillar type thing, which is why I asked Dr. Moss on you know, he's very high in demand. And we're very fortunate to get him on. I mean, if you can imagine, after COVID the demand for clinical psychiatrist people in mental health has been through the roof. Dr. Moss I know he's been busy writing. And he works with patients in his program, which I'm sure he'll talk about Welcome to humanity. But in general, I think one of the interesting parts of the We can we can talk about tonight is, you know, my psychologist who I've been saying he's a clinical hypnotist gave me a book on Shadow Work. I didn't even know that this was a thing. And it was written by one of these young gang guys, I forget who it is, you probably know the book. And it talks about shadow. And I always found that fascinating that how there could be a part of our psyche that if ignored, comes back. uglier, that comes back and can dominate our lives. So I know for you, Bart, you do comedy, which is your outlet for me. I make prank calls. People don't know this about me all the time. And this is a it's a funny thing. I, I make these epic prank calls. I mean, I've got multiple characters. I mean, I really, you know, go out there. And lately, a kid that I've been mentoring, I send it to him because it just brightens up his day because he sees me as a serious like business guy or whatever. And I send him these videos where I'm doing a Iranian accent, you know, or I'm doing a Russian accent or whatever. And I'm just randomly calling people or, or calling scammers back, you know that have the credit card scams, IRS scams, and it's a blast. But we recently got a film deal. And he was in the room playing it when the producers for the film walked into the room. And so I'm sitting at lunch, we're having a business lunch talking about the movie and distribution and who the director should be and who they feel should play me. And all of a sudden that guy goes and dude, you got to make more of those phone calls. I love it. And I was like, Oh my God, what? What you guys heard that. But I realized after I read that shadow book that for me, that's a way of dealing with my shadow. So guys, without further ado, I'm going to let you guys meet Dr. Fred Moss, who's an incredible individual, and a better looking version of John Malkovich on the outside. I'm just gonna say welcome Dr. Moss.

Dr Fred Moss  07:07

It's great to be here. So he that's really great. I love your story about prank calls. And you know, you're never too old to make a really good prank call. I used to love doing that. And you just brought up an old, you know, it's an old standby for me when I was in teenager, I got really, really good. I'd love to hear a little bit of what you've learned how to do it as an adult, because it's a really cool way to pass your time. So I'm interested in that type of shadow work. And we'll talk after the show and see how I might be able to improve my prank game.

Shaahin Cheyene  07:34

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, well, you know, we do take requests. And by we I mean, my multiple characters. I'll probably end this show Bart will probably both end the show with a diagnosis. But listening to Dr. Moss and you know, I've done a deep dive into you Dr. Moss this week, and really, really taken a good listen to some of the material you put out there. And the thing I realized is that there is more to you than meets the eye. And that's what I want to get to so tell me how you started you are not so guys, everybody on the show. I want you guys to understand cuz I did not understand us. Okay? A counselor, a psychologist is not the same as a psychiatrist. And all those are valid. Somebody who's like your life coach, what have we done? We make we poke fun at that from time to time. It's different than a clinical psychiatrist. A psychiatrist, if I'm not mistaken. Isn't you're an MD. You're a medical doctor. Is that right?

Dr Fred Moss  08:34

Yep, absolutely. I went to medical school at Northwestern University from 1984 to 1988, downtown Chicago, Illinois, and I never had a better time in a city than I did in Chicago, Illinois, for those four years just grabbed

Bart Baggett  08:47

like I just got into the residency go to the ER like your real doctors. Let's let's talk about the mind in medicine. Yeah, absolutely.

Dr Fred Moss  08:55

Yeah, yeah, I went to I went to you know, I was in a surgical rotation and pediatric rotation and OB rotation I had I had the whole gamut. And I graduated medical school, just like any, any orthopedic surgeon or proctologist that you might know.

Shaahin Cheyene  09:11

All right. So you're not a life coach. Let's we've got that down, guys. So that the person we're talking to right now, so you know, as a medical doctor, one of one of the most renowned in his field, I think at a certain point, you said you were seeing 1000s of patients. Is that right?

Dr Fred Moss  09:29

Well, over the, you know, over the course of years, there are some years where I saw upwards of 1500 or 2000 patients, but you know, Shaahin, if you want to be honest about it, basically, sometimes some of those patients were either 10 seconds or 30 seconds at a time if I was seeing just kind of buzzing through nursing homes or emergency rooms or stuff. So these are people who, if you include them, the ones who knew me for just enough time for me to meet them and check on them then the numbers got to about 40,000 over the time from 19 90 Up until now.

Shaahin Cheyene  10:01

I think that's about as many girlfriends as barnas had. Yeah. Last

Bart Baggett  10:05

year, just this year.

Dr Fred Moss  10:06

Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, yeah.

Bart Baggett  10:12

deep wounds of insecurity by all the 40,000 women, I'm very upfront about

Shaahin Cheyene  10:16

it. I've done if you ever do the math on those, like you listen to Wilt Chamberlain or some of those other guys, and you just do the math on it, the math is just mind blowing. Like, for some of those guys, it's like you're like, Okay, so that's three to five women a day, every day without a break for 20 years, like, alright, so so so we digress, as we do often on the show. So okay, so let's get back to the more serious topic here. And guys, for any of you guys joining us on Facebook, we will be taking questions and answers. So please save your questions and answers and ask them in the comments below on Facebook, and you can direct them to Dr. Moss, Bart or myself. And we will be delighted to answer those for you. So okay, so you, and this is where I think the story gets really interesting for me. So you are a doctor, you get school debt, you go to school, you get into the system, you do those things that are expected of you. And somewhere along the way, you have a splinter in your mind, there's something that's bugging you. So tell us from that point, which is where I think your story starts to ramp up. What happened?

Dr Fred Moss  11:37

Sure. So I really have to start at a point shorter than that lower or more long, more longer than that. So I went to college at the University of Michigan, hoping that I would finally find you know, smart people up the good stuff and maybe make a life for myself. And it didn't work out that way. So in 1980, I dropped out 1979 I dropped out and I came to California and tried to find my life and decided that wasn't going to work. I tried again, I dropped out again. And that was it. I was done with college in 1980 I was never going to go back and I came home and told my mom that I would never go back and she instead gamea she's like Fred Well, you got to get a job. You know, she moms will be that way they think he got to work and stuff. And so I was like mom and didn't know, Fred really? That's okay. Well, you know, I got to buy a car. If so I can drive around the country and figure out what my life is about. So maybe I'll take a job and I got a job as a as a childcare worker at a state hospital in Pontiac, Michigan, a suburb of Detroit. And there I was actually, you know, I stayed for three weeks that was just long enough to have enough money and I decided to continue on. To work with these children. I worked with kids from 12 to 18. And I was reminded while I was working that communication, connection, conversation, listening, self expression, these types of things have human qualities that far exceed anything that most people imagine. So I was really enjoying being with the kids. So I stayed on for a little longer and stayed on for a little longer. Shaahin, the thing that really bothered me the most was the way that doctors were treating the children. We would call the doctor and say, you know, the child's agitated, maybe he was up too late. Or maybe he got in a fight with a peer or maybe he said no to a nurse or something. And the doctor would come and interview the patient, maybe like for five or 20 seconds, and then write a prescription and then we'd have to hold the kid down and inject him full of drugs. And there was just something about that it just absolutely made my stomach turn every time that had happened. It just seemed like it was so rude and so inhumane. And I saw that and was part of that enough times that I finally made the decision that it was time for me to go back to school and actually become a psychiatrist and bring conversation communication and connection to psychiatry in a way that I think it was meant to be in the first place. Now while I was in sight while I was in my medical school in Chicago, this drug that you may have heard of before, especially you Shaahin it, drug called Prozac was introduced to the world and for the next 12 years. I mean, it was the number one most prescribed drug all specialties included in all of medicine. And you know, there's that, I suppose, I'm not even sure which of our two drugs was selling more, but that's a story for another time as well. So it was around that time that we were we were really you know, all of psychiatry became Biological Psychiatry. Why was there so all of a sudden I was finding myself being trained to deliver medications, the exact thing that I went to school so they wouldn't have to do. Now I was learning to be an expert pharmacologist and expert psychopharmacologist. And I did that and did that and did that and stayed conventional enough so that I couldn't be dismissed. And but the whole time every medication prescription that I wrote, kind of twisted my soul there was like a sacrifice of my soul with every single medication prescription that I wrote, but I continued and continued hoping that I would find some medicine that maybe I liked, or maybe that it worked. Well, over time, that never really happened, these medicines don't work very well, they tend to perpetuate the symptoms they're marketed to treat. So approximately 2006, after quite alive, actually, between 1990 in 2006, I decided to make a difference, and started taking people off of medication. And I think that's the splinter that you're talking about here. That's the point where things started to change fundamentally, for me, as I took people off their medications, well, there, they got better reliably, and then they got way better reliably. And then their actual diagnosis, their condition lifted, like what they thought they had, they didn't have. And this started to happen on a regular basis. So I was like, wow, these medications might be perpetuating the symptoms are marketed to treat. So I started really playing with that and taking a little bit more people off meds, and sure enough, they got better. And then I took a little higher risk people off a meds and sure enough, they got better. And it was really like, well, what am I going to do, because I can't keep prescribing meds that are going to make people worse. So I went through the next several years, just kind of trying to figure out what's going on here continuing to be a conventional psychiatrist so that I could continue conversations inside the middle of the medical complex. And, you know, inside the medical, the medical industry, the middle of the medical industry, and I began to really take people off of medicine and become a stand for people who were, you know, actually maybe not as mentally ill or perhaps not even mentally ill as people think they were. I love being in the streets, you know, I share that with you. I love being in the streets, I love being with people who who are just grounded. And I really got to the point where I could see humans for who they were. And I was back to communicating and connecting and conversing. And, you know, sharing and listening with these people, and it was looking eye to eye and I began to really pull people off of medicine to be less interested in prescribing. And then over the last few years, I've even changed that realizing the medicines themselves were not the problem. What was really the problem was this notion that we were diagnosing people as being mentally ill. And we were using very vague criteria to make that decision. And then once we were diagnosing them and medicating them, indeed, we made them mentally ill and then we could support without, they were sick.

Shaahin Cheyene  17:30

Wow, wow. And I believe that, right? Because I think there's definite vested interests in this in this country alone. Yeah. And it's, and it's always evident when you go overseas, and you walk into a pharmacy, and you're like, how much is that? Medicine, they're like, 23 cents for a bottle, and you're, whoa, wait a second. Like I've got an insurance copay, I got this and this. So Alright, so let's hold on to that thought for just one second, I want to come back. So let's put a bookmark here. On hacking Grow Rich, we talk about unconventional workarounds, which is how we define a hack and unconventional work around to life's challenges or life's problems, and bharden, I have given lots of hacks to that stuff. So now, the part that I find very interesting about this at this point, is that I, oftentimes I teach my students on my Amazon mastery course. And the kids that I mentor, the young, I say, kids, I mean, these are young startup people in Silicon Valley, I feel old when I say kids, but I like to say that sometimes, though, when I, when I mentor them, I teach them about professionals. And professionals, I don't care who it is, if it's a doctor, or a lawyer, or an attorney, or an accountant, they work for us, we don't work for them. And we use them tactically not habitually. We use them as a tool, they enter into our reality distortion field, we tell them what the end result is that we want to achieve. And then we achieve that. So I've got students who call me and they're like, Oh, my God, I, you know, I talked to this lawyer, and he said that this lawsuit is very serious, and there's nothing I can do and I just have to pay them. And I said, you know, what you do? You tell them to fuck off and you find a lawyer that tells you what you want done. Oh, my accountant. He says, if we do this thing, then I'll get audited. And it'll be difficult and whatever. Tell that guy to fuck off and find an account that will do what you want to do within reason. Don't be stupid, but you want to be intelligent. So I'm starting to get the feeling that at this point in your story, you kind of have come to the the partial understanding that you as a as a medical doctor, somebody who has taken this oath, that there's more to the practice of medicine. Then just prescribing drugs now. This has been a very lucrative thing for you. You've been making money you've been living a good life. You've got your pension, you got your 401 K's you got the house, the car, all that stuff is going good for your Jewish mom is like she's, she's loving you man. This is like you are my son is a doctor like Barden. I always talk about you know, Persian parents. I was like, my son is a doctor. It's it's a it's the you are at the pinnacle of success. So at some point, Dr. Moss, something flipped inside of you. What was it? Did you take LSD? Did you? What was the thing that made you be willing to give up this security to to sign out of this life of tick tock going along with one of my old teachers used to always call it tic toc? What everybody wants you to do? You know, come on in, prescribe the Benza Dias and Pam. Okay, get your check at the end of the week, you know, check in once a minute what you said no, you said something's wrong with this structure. Yeah. So what what happened? What happened that change that for you? What was that transformative moment for you?

Dr Fred Moss  21:17

Yeah, well, in 2006, there was a lot of challenges as it turned out, and I'm trying to see if I can actually pick out a moment. But you know that there was a, there was reason for me to back up into my field and rethink whether or not I even needed or wanted to stay a doctor, there were some challenges from the board, I had had a DUI in 2002. And they ran me through a bunch of shit in 2006. That had nothing to do with anything. And it was kind of like a little bit of a little bit of a hazing, a little bit of a witch hunt. And it was rough. And there was an opportunity for me to walk out of the field rather than just face face the music directly. So instead, I did face the music directly, but in the meantime, really had to start looking at what the hell am I doing with my life? What really, what what am I doing? Am I cheating? Am I lying? Am I you know, am I behind my own enemy lines? Am I causing the problems that I'm here to solve? Or am I just taking the money and doing whatever I'm doing to actually be my own enemy. And so with, it really got even louder in 2006. And every year since then, that each diagnosis I made I didn't believe and each medicine that I gave, I knew was going to make the person worse. And when they came back and blame me for getting worse or for not giving them enough medicine and shit like that. It was enough to just drive me wild like, Okay, if I give you more medicine, you're going to get worse and then they'd get really furious. I'd be like, Okay, here we go, I'm going to give you more medicine and then you're going to get worse. And then you know, I had to be there was so much, you know, so much sidestepping and jiving going on in every single interaction that I was having, and where the pain was Shaahin, I would say is the recognition of my soul. That's really what was happening like I was doing, I was living as true and honest, duplicitous life. true and honest, but totally duplicitous. I was doing things that were flat against what I knew was right. And I was doing that every day. And frankly, after a little while, whether you're making 202,000 or $20,000 an hour, that ends up being really trying and going some people do it and they do it the rest of their life. But there was something about it was like, You know what, screw this, I don't want to keep doing it. And that's when I began backing out of the maze. The truth is Shaahin, this Saturday, this upcoming Saturday, I think that's October 1, will be the last day that I ever perform as a conventional psychiatrist. And as of this next Saturday, I right now have a job. That's two hours a week. That job is done as of Saturday. And I now get to call myself a former psychiatrist. And a backing out of that maze over the last 15 years is way more interesting than what it took to get in.

Shaahin Cheyene  23:59

Amazing. Okay, so let's go back to where we were, because I really needed to know that you embark on I always talk about transformative experiences, how they how they change us, so Alright, so now you are at a place where you're like, Fuck this, like I can't, I can't keep medicating people, your colleagues, your colleagues must have been shocked because I know doctors talk and they have colleagues and peers and people you publish stuff with Dude, where are they how are they reacting to

Dr Fred Moss  24:32

you know, it's it's a matter of tiptoeing around and a little ways It isn't like I came right out on the you know, on the the bully pulpit and screamed it from the mountaintops, they knew where I was standing and some I continued at times to do things that were against my better judgment, because that was being called for you know, I like to I think you're a vegan. I like to I like to definitely not a vegan duck. Okay, you were there for a little bit. I like your once I've eaten during my fullest Stace, go during your foolish days, what would be like it would be like a vegan, a vegan working at Kentucky Fried Chicken, you know, and like, that's not gonna work that good actually, he's like doing his very best, but he's a vegan. And every time comes in, and they want a three piece, and the guy says, Dude, you shouldn't be eating fried food, like a raw vegan, you shouldn't be eating chicken, you shouldn't be, you know, you wouldn't last at that job very long, even though you're a high powered vegan. For me, it was, that's what was going on, I was kind of walking the walk to keep the golden handcuffs on. But flying against who I was, it's true, I needed that money or so I thought, and I love the power and the prestige. But it wasn't, it wasn't consistent with where my heart and my soul was. And I really got to discover where my heart and soul wasn't natural, I find myself now aligned, aligned moreso, with who I am and who I get to be.

Shaahin Cheyene  25:49

So we're gonna get to that we're going to get to that. And I definitely want to talk about that. One of the things that I thought was very interesting, one of the interviews that you did, was that you said, something, I think, pretty poignant to your to exactly the point that you're making now. And that was that once you stopped medicating people, and you saw people getting better, and by the way, guys, I neither me nor Bart are doctors. And so please consult with your doctor, Dr. Moss is not giving medical advice on this show. So this is just for entertainment purposes only. Always consult with a doctor, we're going to give that to you guys. So you don't end up suing us. If something goes wrong, and you decide to take our medical advice, definitely don't listen to me. I've got the sophistication of a chimpanzee. Bart is a little more sophisticated, and Dr. Fred moss is actually a doctor, but not giving medical advice again on this show. So the thing that you said, which, in fewer words, I thought was that you came to this profound realization that humans are not broken. And that the current structure of how people are treated, how medicine is handled in this country, how drugs are dished out willy nilly, to anybody as a easy solution, whereas they, they're not curatives. They, they they in most cases, they fix the the, the symptoms, occasionally, but not the cause. And you came to this realization that not only drugs may not be necessary, but in fact, the condition may be a ghost. Yeah. Tell me about that.

Dr Fred Moss  27:44

Yeah, you know, so the the whole idea of psychiatric diagnosis, and frankly, I could go into other sub specialties as well. But I've been advised by coaches in the past and colleagues in the past to stay with psychiatry, since that is my major specialty. The whole idea these diagnosis are, they're a contrived conversation, you know, that sometimes the diagnoses come up, even like after the treatments are created. So the whole idea that there is some degree of normalcy, and that there is some degree of abnormal see is based on the notion that we know what normal is, in truth, I've never even met anybody who's able to tell me what normal is. So it's kind of ludicrous that we would have any kind of confidence that there was such thing as abnormal. On top of that, if we look at the people that we might call abnormal in downtown Los Angeles, these are not the same people who might be called normal somewhere else. There's people who, in other countries or other cultures would be maybe labeled as having the same condition being given a gift, perhaps they would move into shaman or with it, in some cases, they might even become a president of a country. And there's a real opportunity to see that it's culturally specific. It's temporarily super specific. And in fact, it's not even specific. It's very vague on the edges. So I mean by that is, it's that's why people who are in the psychiatric system for a long time, are usually sporting six 810 or 12 diagnoses, because I've seen enough doctors who have just thrown whatever they have thrown on him and then they walk away as if they have an actual diagnosis. As it turns out, these diagnoses are just contrived conversations. And look for the same listeners that you just gave the disclaimer to. I want to say one thing about this because sometimes this gets mis hurt. I in no way I'm diminishing the pain and suffering and misery of these people who are having a life that is not working. This this is not saying something like you know it's in your head get over it is not saying like you're not you're not upset or you're not uncomfortable. I completely get how uncomfortable people can be 40,000 patients later I've had my share of seeing some significant discomfort. This is not to reduce that. What it is to go to, however, is what you were just saying, which is, people are not inherently broken. People are just like you and I and like everyone else trying to figure out what to do with our next step in this crazy world, and sometimes making good decisions along those lines, and sometimes not making good decisions along those lines. And that's just what humanity is about. So I don't when I started treating people, like people, and not like some sort of measure of whether or not they were defective, that's when massive healing started happening between me and my clients and my patients. Wow.

Shaahin Cheyene  30:39

So, and I get that, you know, in my attire in my early 20s, I was watching a film that was like one of those action films. And all of a sudden, my heart starts pumping, right? And I was like, Oh, my God, I've been poisoned. I was sure I had like, a little bit of nausea and like, my heart was beating No sweat. And I was generally like, Cool as a cucumber. So I was like, What the fuck is this? And so I was like, I'm gonna go to a gastro doctor. I went to a gastro doctor. And the guy just looked at me, and he's like, Dude, you're just having panic attacks. He's like, and I was like, what is that? What's a panic attack? And he's like, you know, you're having panic attacks. He's like, I'm like, Okay, well, how do you get rid of those? And he said, Oh, well, that's not a problem. I'll just give you these these meds. And he wrote me these meds for I think it was Benza diazepam, or something like that. And this coming from a gastro doctor. And so I got the bottle of pills. And I remember I was in San Francisco, I flew out to San Francisco and someone's private jet, because there was some big thing I was doing there. And they started coming on, again, the panic attacks. And I was like, fuck, man, it was really hard. I mean, I felt like debilitated, debilitated disability to be debilitated. There you go. That's good. Um, and I remember you habilitative

Dr Fred Moss  32:01

by the way, it's just not a good word.

Shaahin Cheyene  32:04

Like I said, I've got the sophistication of a chimpanzee back. So I took one of the pills. And I remember sitting on the bed, and I remember having this very same realization that you're having, which was, wait a second, like, this just makes me feel like a frickin zoom in, you know, I'm the kind of guy where I took half a pill. They told me, the guy told me to I took half of one of those things. And I'm just sitting going, Oh, my God, I feel numbed out, like, that part is numb now. And I thought to myself, like, Fuck, man, I feel like something's been taken from me. I feel like somebody took this pain that I could deal with that I what like you're saying, I I realized in that moment that I wasn't a broken fucking person. But this was an experience that I was having along my journey for a reason. And I took the entire bottle, threw it in the trash never took that stuff again. And then I did different things like havening, meditation, different tactics to disassociate the feelings. And then later, you know, Shadow Work and learning about the shadow and those types of things. And I managed to resolve it. But if that I, from what you're saying. It's making sense to me, that that stress, that panic, that anxiety became a part of me. And rather than it being a thing that weakens me as a human, it's something that gives me strength. So another thing that you said, that was very interesting, that I thought on one of the interviews that you did, was that, hey, you know what, like, you may never be 100%. And that's okay. There's always going to be shit wrong. Why don't you talk to us about that a little bit? Because I thought that was very poignant and powerful. And I haven't heard a lot of people speak truth the way you did there.

Dr Fred Moss  34:05

Yeah. Yeah. So the, I think what you're pointing to so thank you for sharing your own personal journey. That's a that's a pretty common journey. And one of the things you know that a lot of a lot of people can look at that maybe this will help our listeners take a peek at. This is like your panic attack. Let's say you had a mosquito bite on your elbow that was bugging you. And you know, you just finally got like, two weeks and couldn't reach it and try it and it got bigger and bigger and you find the site down, I better go to a doctor and you go to a doctor and he says, oh, yeah, I seen those mosquito bites I got just like your gastro dude said about about just like I got just a medication for you. And what he does, instead he's like, okay, it's only gonna hurt for a little bit and he decides to cut off your arm from the shoulder down. Now, when he does that, you know, and then he'll just like, Okay, we're done. That's it. Come back in two weeks, and we'll check to see whether the mosquito bites still there. And instead, we come back in two weeks, and they check for that left elbow, mosquito bite. And sure enough, there is no left elbow mosquito bite, it's been cured, because there is no flippin left elbow anymore, and there's no left arm. And we don't have that diagnosis, because we're so myopic about what we're looking at. And what we're looking for. This is how psychiatric medicine frequently works. And we not only remove the symptom, we remove all capacity to take any kind of experience in from that realm. And so it is a false notion that the condition is treated properly by slicing off the arm for a mosquito bite. So what happened? I've been remind me again, the follow up question that you just want to make sure I answer it correctly.

Shaahin Cheyene  35:45

Yeah. So So I think I think you're you're speaking exactly to that. I don't think I had a follow up question. I think I was just wanting you to speak to that.

Dr Fred Moss  35:52

Yeah. Yeah. The idea is it you know, we, we aren't inherently broken. There's a world out there. And there's the possibility of really embracing every experience as being an experience that life itself is just offering, whether it's miserable, or ecstasy, as a matter of fact. Yeah.

Shaahin Cheyene  36:16

So where do we go from there? Well,

Dr Fred Moss  36:18

the next place to really go to is this is that. I began to treat people and colleagues, social workers and nurses, other doctors and friends, family and, you know, citizens a certain way, there was like, you know, opening up this conversation to people who had either been on a lot of medicine or cared for people on a lot of medicine, or people who are, you know, thinking about getting diagnosed, or have their children diagnosed, I began to have this conversation. And the thing that was most interesting is that nearly everyone knows that this is true. Very few. They're like, if you really ask them their truth, everyone knows that this no one is that shocked? Let's put it that way. Maybe they hadn't thought about it overtly. But no one is that shocked by a system that continues to get worse and worse and worse. Last I looked it's mental illness problem isn't taken care of. Would you agree with that? I mean, there's a fair amount of this stuff going on in the world. And part of that comes from the fact that there are so many people being diagnosed and treated, and that diagnosis, and then a follow up treatment just often creates, at least perpetuates the conditions are marketed to deal with.

Shaahin Cheyene  37:39

So what do you what do you do? I mean, Bart, maybe you can help me phrase this in a in a better way. But what what do you do if you're the average person, and you're thinking you're gonna go through the system the way the way it is? Or? Yeah.

Dr Fred Moss  37:56

What should you do at that point? Is that what you're asking?

Shaahin Cheyene  37:59

Yeah, well, what I'm saying is, is that you've given a profound revelation, right, that I think very few people who don't have a vested interest in one side or the other, and I assume that you're not, and don't take this the wrong way. But you're not a Scientologist. Right. And they're, they're against psychiatry for their own reasons. You know, you're not, you know, you're not gonna enlist them in some weird cult or whatever. You're an actual doctor. And you're saying, hey, you know, maybe there's a better way? What's the better way? Yeah,

Bart Baggett  38:33

yeah, I think what I'm also trying to ask is, there are people in a lot of pain right now, or your mom has anxiety, or she can't fall asleep, or one of my good friends is a psychiatrist specializing in pain reduction, people in chronic pain. And his job is to help them with the pain. So those people exist. And those are real problems. And if you have a better solution, that's amazing. In the meantime, to get this big system where people are just craving for some sort of short term solution, is it simply people don't have the training and to walk through someone like yourself to find that organic, healthier way to do it more? Is it on such a scale, there's just not people because we're definitely not saying don't ever do drugs and don't just jump off drugs? Like we're not giving that advice at all. We're saying there may be a path that that won't harm you. So the average person my mom has anxiety and she's taking some but how do you want to treat her? How do I help her get over that anxiety and move her slowly to more organic solution?

Dr Fred Moss  39:34

Yeah, it's great question. Thank you for that. Well, well stated um but I think one thing you want to look at is the possibility that these band aids that we're using have razor blades embedded in them. So when I say that the medications which write a razor blade and bedded Band Aid is going to work for a minute It will cover the cut for a minute. And then the razor blade will do its job and it'll bleed out of the band aid and you'll think your condition is back, the cut got worse, your thing to cut naturally got worse. And that's how it goes, you know you and then you'll be like, Well, next time I go, and I'm just going to get a bigger band aid. And you get a bigger Band Aid a little bit higher dose, maybe you add a medicine, maybe you change, you know, maybe you change a medicine. So those are the three things that doctors do with medicine, they can add, they can change, or they can increase, those are the three choices, add another one change to another one, or increase the dose of the present one. We're not even taught how to stop people on medicine, whenever we're taught. So we there's an unspoken rule when we when we very unspoken contract when we start medicine, right? When you're with your doctor, and he's talking about a medicine, let's see if it works. The idea is that you think that if it doesn't work, he'll just take you off the medicine and roll on. But no, that's not really how it goes how it goes, he takes you off that medicine, He'll either add increase or change your medicine, you're on medicine for the rest of the ride. In almost all the cases, and certainly in psychiatry, you will be on medicine generally for the Western rest of the ride. So when I talk to people, and again, no disrespect at all to people who are being treated like do you know, I'm sure this, if he's your friend, I'm sure he's a very competent man fully up to Good News and with respect to a psychiatrist who's taking care of pain management. But if these medications are also causing the symptoms, they're marketed to treat and I sustained, I maintain that, that there is at least a good solid component of that going on with these medications. So that this will be a perpetual state this patient that he's treating for pain management, we can be pretty sure that 1234 years from now, that dude will still be lining up at the pharmacy once a month to get his drugs, I promise for sure. And he'll be worse off than he is today. I can also promise that. So what is the way out of this? Well, one way is in education is start getting look, if we actually pull you off this medicine by Re configuring the RE transforming the narrative that supports its use in the first place. Right? If you knew you weren't sick, then you would also knew you didn't need medicine. Now, that doesn't really mean to all of our listeners, like Shane's already said, really important to get there. I am not in any way telling you to dump your medicine and toilet right now and God not at all. Not at all. Not at all. But if we can reconfigure the base conversation, the base narrative such that one knows himself not to be sick, except perhaps based on the razor blade that's embedded in the so called virtual bandaid bend the possibility exists, that without a diagnosis without a confirm a confirmation that there was something wrong with somebody, they would know that they didn't have to take something to make them. Right. Right. Like, like, if you knew there was nothing wrong with you, then you, you could know that there's no reason to treat it. Now, this is the interesting space. And I think you're I think both of you have kind of brushed up against this, which is you see people talking to themselves in the street, or you see people having panic attacks four times a day, or you see people who are you know, crying and can't get out of bed. And those people are generally already diagnosed with medication. But it looks like the prevailing narrative is that there's a condition under there that isn't responding adequately to the medicine. And what I'm really suggesting here, there are many ways to look at this, but it's possible that the diagnosis and the treatment are actually perpetuating the condition. And it's time to back out for only for those people who are ready to do so. Only for those people who look if what you're doing is working by all means more power to you don't even think of changing it. Why change horses in midstream. I'm seriously it's a big if what's going on for you and your loved one is working. This is not a request to do anything different. who I'm speaking with are the people who are sick and tired of getting worse. They have been to so many doctors and so many hospitals, they've had so many different diagnosis and so many different treatments, and shit keeps getting worse. That's the people who need to really step back perhaps and really listen to the possibility that maybe what was declared wrong with them in the first place was was inaccurate and that the possibility exists that we can back off that conversation bring people back to being whole and perfect as they are and set them up in another direction using creativity using nutrition using meditation and mindfulness using you know, service to others using performing arts all sorts of things that we know that are time tested. Good actually bring us some degree of sanctity and some degree of health. Yeah,

Shaahin Cheyene  44:55

that's interesting, too, because I think in the last couple years, especially with COVID No All the stuff that has happened is we've discovered that these types of conversation have gone from being nuanced to being polarized that take the drugs or don't take the drugs, go to the doctor, don't fucking go to the doctor, right? Believe in this guy or that guy. Like, what I'm hearing from your words, is that oftentimes these things might be nuanced. Like you're saying, maybe the path is going to be, what happens if you just take less of the drug for a little bit, and slowly taper off? What happens if you reduce your dosage into half. Most doctors, from what I understand, aren't trained to deal with those types of things like they they teach them in medical school, hey, you give them this dosage of this. And it's a it's a one size fits all type of system. Whereas with human beings, we're all individuals, and what it takes to make you better and what it takes to make me better. It could be very different, and just even micro changes to all types of things, the stuff that you're talking about, like meditation, so socialization, right, if we have social contact, especially as men, and females, too, of course, but what I mean is men hanging around with other strong men that can help bring us up in life as men or women, you know, around other strong women, creating those social bonds. Those can be as impactful as as drugs. There's there's a great book, I don't know if you've read it called spark. Did you ever read this book? Yeah. So Spark is a book that examines the effects of exercise on the brain. And I recommend it for everyone. I think I got two copies and near somewhere, but we should get the author on. And in it, he cites one really interesting study, because I know you brought up Prozac. And I believe, if I'm not mistaking, that was the drug that he was discussing. And he said that there was this double blind PLACEBO study. And they had women who took Prozac, and then women who exercised and the study shocked the world. Because exercise, regular exercise to exertion for females, in particular, landed better results than both placebo and the drug. So, as a female, you could say, Hey, I believe in science, I only believe in stuff that's double blind, clinically proven. I'm not going for any of this woowoo shit, but I can just fucking exercise to exhaustion. And I don't have to pop the pill. But the problem is, both patient and doctor are complicit. That's right. Because we don't want to do the work. Most people don't seek discomfort. Most people don't seek discipline, most people seek, just give me the fucking pill. Just give me the pill. I was reading about this guy today. Who invented the stuff, right? And you sprinkle it on your food. You don't need to exercise and you don't need to diet and you can lose an incredible amount of weight. What do you think? What do you think happened to this guy?

Dr Fred Moss  48:26

I don't know.

Shaahin Cheyene  48:28

He made he made. He made almost half a billion dollars selling this stuff until they discovered that. Allegedly, allegedly. I don't know all the details. But some of the studies that he was doing, were fudged and that the allegedly the people who were hired to leave testimonials were just paid actors. But this was a major thing. I mean, major celebrities got on board with this. But it led me to the to the to the thought that yeah, you know, like, We're fucking lazy man. Most people are fucking lazy. Most people don't want to do the work. So which brings me to you now. And I think BART has a question as well. I see him unmuted. So

Dr Fred Moss  49:09

yeah, go ahead, Bart.

Bart Baggett  49:11

I want to just dive a little bit into sort of the fundamental diagnosis process because a lot of people especially Shaahin said they don't know that there's any psychiatrist psychologist. And so the understanding that when you get your blood drawn from medical doctor and they test that blood and they're looking for let's say the Coronavirus is very specific scientific. If I'm understanding the DSM five correctly, and the book that identifies, quote, psychiatric problems, there is no blood test for any of these purported diseases. Definitely there. So let me let me see if I understand this correctly, because you're You're the doctor. So every few years they make a book and diagnose things, I think. I think 20 years ago, homosexuality was a disorder and And then they got a lot of shit for it. And then they undiagnosed it in a previous edition. So if you think this is scientific, it feels more like a committee of people sitting around voting on what new names of things to do, and then selling drugs with insurance companies around that. Now that simplified it a lot. But is there any scientific sort of medical tests that correlate to these conditions? Or is there just a list of symptoms expressed by the patient?

Dr Fred Moss  50:32

Well, it's some, it's a hybrid of that, mostly B, and not a, you know, there's no certainly no tests that support any particular psychiatric diagnosis. You know, there's, there's chromosome deficiencies and you know, stuff like that, that lead to psychiatric looking conditions, but those are no longer given a psychiatric diagnosis are more associated with a chromosome deficiency. So it can be secondary to other conditions that there are, you know, organic brain syndromes that are related to some other condition that's going on, you know, that you may have been born with or then picked up along the way. But there are no there is no hard and fast way to actually diagnose any psychiatric diagnosis with hardcopy with you know, with pulling blood or taking urine or, or putting someone in putting a stick up someone's nose or anything like that. That isn't how we make diagnoses psychiatrically how we make diagnoses psychiatrically generally, is that the public thinks that doctors are like really familiar with all the pieces of the DSM four and that we're actually using it to make to make our diagnosis. But the truth is, over time, we see so many patients every hour, that we're looking for buzzwords. So I knew that Shaahin when he was telling me the story, as soon as he said that his heart was pounding and he thought his heart was going to I knew already that someone was going to diagnose him with a panic attack. That was that's all I needed. I was already 10 seconds ahead of Shaahin, I was quite certain that that's how that would go because that buzzword is stuck to panic attack. As it turns out, panic attack has a whole list of of conditions or criteria that has to be met. If you're going to actually get that diagnosis, then it's way more than whatever. That gastro dude said was a panic attack. He doesn't know anything about the DSM four or five. And the diagnosis, the way it's actually written includes multiple criteria that he doesn't use, and frankly, neither do psychiatrists. We just look for Okay, pay a guy like Shaahin says, Look, I'm just sitting here and all of a sudden, I feel like I'm gonna die. My eyes get sweaty palms, and my heart's beating out of my chest. I'm, what do I got, oh, you got a panic attack, it's, uh, you know, and then everyone, it just kinda it's sidesteps a whole thing. And now you have a psychiatric diagnosis. But not only do you have a psychiatric dosis, no diagnosis, now, you have a psychiatric diagnosis forever. Now you're a dude who had panic attacks. Now you have panic disorder. And now we're giving you benzodiazepines, which by the way, are going to cause panic. reliably. Really, I don't know, they're gonna take your arm off to treat your mosquito bite, but they're actually going to give you panic anyways. And now when the panic comes, you're going to be thinking that the Xanax you are taking isn't a high enough dose, so you're going to update it, get that band aid a little bit bigger. It looks like they covered it, and then the razor blade goes to work. And that's the way the dance goes. Now, I don't mean to implicate the medical system, I actually think it's an amazing business model. After all, they make billions of dollars every single day. So they must have worked out good. It's really a great model to actually create a system that perpetuates the need to continue to use the system. I mean, lord knows that's a pretty cool model that's gonna get you a house in the hills, ultimately, and that's what happens to these guys. But it isn't the system because as Shaahin so rightfully said, there's really this idea there's a complicity not only with the doctors, the person who could get who could stop doing this is actually the person who's putting that pill in your mouth every single day. In the end, that's no one is just because a doctor tells me to do something doesn't mean I have to do it like Shaahin was saying earlier, you know, with what do you do with the this idea, however you put it there, you know that we use them, they don't use us, the lawyers, the doctors, etc. If a doctor tells you that you're supposed to eat a little bit of rat poison, due to the fact that you're having trouble, you know, dealing with your mother in law. That doesn't mean that you should do it.

Shaahin Cheyene  54:37

No, you haven't met my mother in law. Oh, that's not for me. Sorry. Go ahead.

Dr Fred Moss  54:41

No, it's, it's like, really, you get a choice here. And this idea, I need to take medicine. It's all built into the system that gives doctors a super high power and people the idea that if they don't listen to their doctor, they'll be in a bad citizen.

Shaahin Cheyene  54:58

So alright, So this is very interesting, because I think also on the same token, you know, it's pretty funny that a lot of this technology, a lot of this, you know, the technology of psychiatry, all this stuff, it's fairly new. And a lot of these medicines are fairly new. So I like collecting old encyclopedias. If you can see up there, I've got a few of them from the 1940s and 50s. So from the 1950s, there is a big series of books called the Encyclopedia of health. And in the 1950s, this was something that was given to doctors that were part of this group, as well as the general public but doctors had this and in it, what do you think they were proposing was one of the main causes of consumption or tuberculosis Take a guess.

Bart Baggett  55:54

Cantaloupes?

Shaahin Cheyene  55:55

What was it? Fucking random Bart.

Dr Fred Moss  56:00

Cantaloupes, cantaloupes.

Bart Baggett  56:02

No, they were not eating envelopes that was against the law by God. So they're eating some kind of food that's common, and then they tied it into it. Yeah. Or chimney smoke.

Dr Fred Moss  56:11

Yeah, I could see that it was maybe be smoking or work occupation stuff. I don't know. She didn't help us out.

Shaahin Cheyene  56:17

Masturbation guys masturbation in the 1950s they believed Tuberculosis was caused by masturbation I have this I'll cantaloupe

Bart Baggett  56:28

was correct. Because you can masturbate with a cantaloupe. I saw it in a more you I think we were correct on that answer.

Dr Fred Moss  56:36

Some of us don't have Okay, that's to get that done bar. But I appreciate that you do actually. It's kind of good

Shaahin Cheyene  56:41

art. And I always joke about who's going to be canceled first. And I think in this this evening marks precedence where it will not be me. No fruit related issues here. But I will I will, I will post that. So, but if you think back like Alright, so this was between 1948 and 1953 they published this thing. Dude, that's not that frickin long ago. We're talking what is that? 65 years, something like that? Right? Maybe my mask off, but something like that. So 65 That's, that's a blink. That's a fucking blink man. The Vikings controlled all of England for close to 1200 years. Yeah, we're talking about 60 years, we thought that if you pleasure yourself that you would get tuberculosis. And it's from that same institution that comes this New Thought, which and look, I I'm with you. I think that medication, there's a way to use it tactically, we just had Dr. Bruce on Dr. Michael Bruce, America's sleep doctor. And he taught us a lot about how to use caffeine tactically rather than habitually. Yeah, and sure, I think, you know, there's a total place for this. If you get sick, you get a bacteria. Antibiotics are fucking great. There's nothing better than a Z pack. If you've got some crazy, crazy bacteria that could potentially potentially kill you. I mean, every time I'm like, dude, like I had a tooth infection once, and I was like, what happens if you just don't do anything? Like, you know, I went to the store and antibiotics, you know, it was like five bucks. Oh, Peg at the antibiotics? I'm good. Like, seven days. 10 days. I'm like, golden. But not too long ago. I mean, what are we what are we talking like, turn of the century, right? You could fucking people died from that shit guy. Yeah, yeah. I mean, my, my dad had, like, 11 brothers and sisters. And I was like, Well, why the fuck did he have so many, there's only like three left, because they just would die off. So you'd have to place your bets, you'd have to find, you know, a fertile wife and like knockout as many as you can, because you knew they weren't going to make it. So we're, you know, we're pretty fortunate with that stuff. So but I get your point. So okay, so we're, I know that you've got stuff you got to do. We're nearing the end. Tell me Tell us more about how people can get ahold of you how they can learn more about your work. And I know that this is a living live process for you. I know that you're evolving. I know that you're going to be launching a podcast soon. And that you'll be making appearances. So people look for Dr. Moss on different podcast feeds, because I know he's going to be doing the podcast circuit and doing some interesting shows. I know we've already got several that he's lined up that I'm excited to hear. But, Dr. Moss tell us more about how people can find you how people can learn more about your work and what the next evolution of this is going to be for you.

Dr Fred Moss  59:52

Sure. So thank you for that. I really already have a podcast. It's pretty great. It's the Welcome to humanity podcast and we have a number of really fabulous conversations, including one just the other day, I mean, each and every one of those is so much fun. I invite my your listeners, our viewers to take a peek at that and say welcome to humanity dotnet forward slash podcast. And then there's another podcast it's people were looking at called insanity. That's two different words. And that's the one, you're talking about Shaahin where we've already taped 15 of them. And we're looking at post production at this point, moving those up to the height scale. So those should be released within the next month or so with two weeks to a month. And I'm also involved with this program that I'm calling the true voice podcasting. So true voice, podcasting is an opportunity for me to assist people to really find what it is that's important to them the same kind of thing like get out of your duplicity, the things that really matter to you the thing that are really important to you, what would it take for you to get really aligned with that, and the gift that these people get these participants in this program would be that within about three months been perhaps less than that they would have their own working high class podcasts where they indeed, like you're doing now and like I do, really be able to speak their truth in a self expressed way in this using this particular platform methodology that still is not subject that's for some reason, as we sit here today, not subject to the Kancil culture at nearly a level that most of the other most of the other platforms are. So you know, I, you mentioned that you thought I'm not a life coach. And as it turns out, right now, what I would call myself as a transformational or restorative coach. So I in fact, as the undocked er, which is the name that I'm affectionately known as, what I do is I walk people off their diagnoses, walk people off their medications, and give them their life back. And you know, all of this is aligned with just being like just getting your real self, your real unbroken self coming to grips with the idea that the mistakes you're making, the stuff you're doing that you wish you weren't doing, the stuff that's happening to you that you really think shouldn't be, are all part of the human experience, coming to grips with that embracing that, holding that off, and then communicating that with others. It seems to me that podcasting is one great way to do that. So my life as a podcaster is the next career as I really, really hand off this life as a conventional psychiatrist. It's upcoming Saturday, I'm moving into podcasts at full speed, like you know, Mach one straight up straight speed ahead.

Shaahin Cheyene  1:02:24

I love that. And I'll talk to you off air about that. I've got some ideas for you on that. Cool. All right. So and if people want to get a hold of you for your coaching and whatnot, how can people reach you? Is it through Welcome to humanity? dotnet

Dr Fred Moss  1:02:38

Yeah, that would be one place if you just email me, Dr. Fred, welcome to humanity. dotnet is one it probably the best space to do that. I'm also on the, you know, the regular social media networks. I'm on Facebook, and I'm on most of us, Facebook and LinkedIn. But these days, I'm being coached into using everything from you know, Pinterest to Twitter to so Snapchat, tick tock tick, but really the two that I like to frequent if I frequent any right now is Facebook and LinkedIn.

Shaahin Cheyene  1:03:07

I love that. I love that. All right, awesome. And my co hosts bark. If people want to get a hold of you and learn more about all the cool stuff that you're doing, how do people find you?

Bart Baggett  1:03:19

Please follow me Bart Baggett on Twitter, as well as Instagram and Facebook ba RTB ag GTT and yeah, I'd love to get some, some email, some fans some some give you some free books a lot, a lot of a lot of good resources I've developed over the last 25 years as an author and a speaker. So yeah, let's reach out and then of course, hit the subscribe button. So you get notification next time we go live on YouTube and Facebook.

Shaahin Cheyene  1:03:43

Yeah, next time when I figure all that stuff out. But what

Dr Fred Moss  1:03:47

if I contact you can I learn this thing? Methodology about this cantaloupe thing?

Shaahin Cheyene  1:03:53

says okay,

Bart Baggett  1:03:54

that is from a movie a very, very popular movie wasn't not a pie. It was an American Pie of reference. Everybody knows for it. I'm not getting stuck making that joke. I'm just referencing American Pie. I just have to associate myself with that humor.

Shaahin Cheyene  1:04:11

Or makes fun of me for saying stuff that he thinks will get us canceled. And then he just comes out with a zinger out of left field where you're like oh, okay buddy fruits huh? All right, we're definitely I'm checking the not child friendly box in our live stream from now on. Alright guys, well and I'm Shaahin Shan guys, the book is out now billion how he became king of the thrill pill called the first chapter is available for free on Spotify, Stitcher, Apple podcasts, Google podcasts, wherever podcasts are found. And if you're listening to this, the audible audio book will be out within the next two weeks. So if you want to wait for that do that. If not get a hold of the book. We've got a limited drop now of hardcover books. The softcover will be available in about 30 days but the book is available If you're interested and excited about checking that out, please do so let us know what you think. Make sure to subscribe and like and check us out on the next episode. We'll catch you guys on the next one. Dr. Moss, thank you so much for being on.

Dr Fred Moss  1:05:13

Thanks for having me. See you. Nice to see you there Bart and I really really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you. Yeah, likewise

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